tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post9106695172515841591..comments2024-03-28T22:17:48.180+00:00Comments on Conservative Tendency: Europe and IslamMark Englishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-14887281183232303992011-03-28T04:58:31.815+00:002011-03-28T04:58:31.815+00:00I wish we did have more Muslim input.I wish we did have more Muslim input.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-1242318226211343752011-03-27T08:24:57.764+00:002011-03-27T08:24:57.764+00:00Where are the Muslims in this dialogue?
:)Where are the Muslims in this dialogue?<br /><br />:)AAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09877649219630910144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-8768365691294401992011-03-26T12:32:33.307+00:002011-03-26T12:32:33.307+00:00If you like people who like being argumentative, y...If you like people who like being argumentative, you will like Gellner.<br /><br />But he's also empirically minded and intellectually very smart.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16898681927233029900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-65783155403600425522011-03-26T02:41:16.268+00:002011-03-26T02:41:16.268+00:00On Gellner: I did start to read him a couple of ti...On Gellner: I did start to read him a couple of times in the past, but something put me off. I don't know that it was anything I can specify precisely. I'll have another look at him.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-39124827320675596392011-03-25T19:33:14.415+00:002011-03-25T19:33:14.415+00:00Oh and he was a philosopher and social anthropolog...Oh and he was a philosopher and social anthropologist ... so whatever he said, he's probably right. LOL ....GTChristiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14390368105725901371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-829638262972041062011-03-25T19:31:30.795+00:002011-03-25T19:31:30.795+00:00Whenever you guys mention somebody I've never ...Whenever you guys mention somebody I've never heard of, I go to Wiki and SEP right away to see what I've been missing. On Ernest Gellner, from the wiki: "John Davies writes that sociologist David Glass once said he wasn't sure whether the next revolution would come from the right or the left, but he was quite sure that, wherever it came from, the first person to be shot would be Ernest Gellner."<br /><br />Obviously doing good philosophy, in other words. LOL. (Critical of linguistic philosophy, communism, psychoanalysis, relativism, and the dictatorship of the free market.)<br /><br />There's <i>another</i> one I have to read.GTChristiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14390368105725901371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-41454696821721116632011-03-25T02:55:55.008+00:002011-03-25T02:55:55.008+00:00Yun Yi, I am encouraged by what you say.Yun Yi, I am encouraged by what you say.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-59063261987257772482011-03-25T02:45:04.575+00:002011-03-25T02:45:04.575+00:00Alan, I was talking about a centuries-long cultura...Alan, I was talking about a centuries-long cultural tradition, and the extreme movements you allude to (signs of the weakening of that tradition) only really flourished in parts of Western Europe for a few decades in the 20th century (somewhat longer in central and Eastern Europe).Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-61760809442927190112011-03-24T23:07:58.128+00:002011-03-24T23:07:58.128+00:00In the middle of last century, Western European cu...In the middle of last century, Western European culture was divided between fascist, Marxist and liberal factions, fighting each other to the death. Luckily, the liberals won.<br /><br />But maybe you are defining Western in such a way as to exclude Paris, Berlin and Rome?Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16898681927233029900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-82764966844310635862011-03-24T19:33:29.848+00:002011-03-24T19:33:29.848+00:00"Western European culture had great prestige ..."Western European culture had great prestige until about the middle of the last century"<br />agree! it is undeniable. and i continue have "faith" in its vitality - the vitality i have not seen in any other cultures.Yun Yihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06311104014692132715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-36953947443669610642011-03-24T05:20:41.813+00:002011-03-24T05:20:41.813+00:00Yun Yi, you may well be right - most people do ten...Yun Yi, you may well be right - most people do tend to be deeply attached to their cultural roots. I think you would admit, however, that Western European culture had great prestige until about the middle of the last century and was widely respected, even if it was not widely loved.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-67467059431246180842011-03-24T04:13:41.561+00:002011-03-24T04:13:41.561+00:00Alan, thanks for the reference. I've just been...Alan, thanks for the reference. I've just been reading about sexual customs. It's pretty well-known that certain practices which are often attributed to Islam are really traditional, regional practices. As you suggest, you have to take into account the social aspects as well as the religious ones. (Though they are sometimes hard to disentangle!)Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-30039517097712214762011-03-23T19:08:10.409+00:002011-03-23T19:08:10.409+00:00I am not surprised about "resurgence of polit...I am not surprised about "resurgence of political Islam". I also doubt about their "felt great respect for European traditions and values". <br />Since China's first attempt to adopt Western cultural value over a century ago, until now, 90% of Chinese intellects (my personal estimation) do not feel so much praise to it. They may feel great interest from beginning but at the end, they hold their own value, good or bad,even tighter. <br />I assume Islam has quite a same situation. I guess this is a conflict between individualism and collectivism.Yun Yihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06311104014692132715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-52651274992427404122011-03-23T09:54:50.998+00:002011-03-23T09:54:50.998+00:00I agree, it's not automatic that the political...I agree, it's not automatic that the political leadership mirrors the values of the populace, so I was jumping a bit too quickly.<br /><br />I think Ernest Gellner has been one of the best commentators on this topic. One of his main points is that the Arab social world is differently structured from that of the West. Arab society is built around the clan; Western society has no clans, but identifies with the nuclear/extended family and the polity.<br /><br />Someone migrating from the Arab Muslim world to the West is making two shifts at once: from a religion-saturated system to a religion-lite world; and from a clan-based to a clan-free society.<br /><br />Gellner has a website dedicated to his work at http://gellnerpage.tripod.com. His "Conditions of Liberty" is the book I know best, and it's on the Islam-West theme.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16898681927233029900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-6004087611995153842011-03-23T04:45:46.746+00:002011-03-23T04:45:46.746+00:00CONSVLTVS, I agree with you entirely on the Old Te...CONSVLTVS, I agree with you entirely on the Old Testament. In fact Renan was quite as hard on the OT as he was on Islam. (I'll try to find a quote.)<br /><br />The issue of moderate Muslims is one Caldwell deals with. It's complicated. Tariq Ramadan, for instance, is he moderate?<br /><br />At any rate, I certainly hope that forms of Islam which are supportive of (or at least compatible with) Western notions of political and economic freedom flourish.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-7776335148030914882011-03-23T02:27:54.390+00:002011-03-23T02:27:54.390+00:00Alan, the post is based on a section of Caldwell&#...Alan, the post is based on a section of Caldwell's book, but mixes in my reflections (which I think are more or less in line with what Caldwell says here and elsewhere in the book as it happens). If it's common knowledge - that's okay. It's a sensitive topic of some importance and talking about it, even without saying anything new, can be worthwhile, I think.<br /><br />Caldwell says in the paragraph I quoted that Arab nationalism was a threat - but that these young men would be unlikely to embody it. I think he is implicitly drawing a distinction between them (and the European-inspired secular culture they embody) and their leaders who, as you say, had dangerous ideas. I was assuming that such a distinction could be drawn. You could certainly question my suggestion that they "no doubt felt great respect for European traditions and values." This is - frankly - speculation. (I would say plausible speculation!) I think Caldwell is getting at the same point in his talk of their "vocation to act as Europeans."Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-77253945018062815302011-03-23T01:32:51.409+00:002011-03-23T01:32:51.409+00:00The Old Testament is just as brutal as the Koran. ...The Old Testament is just as brutal as the Koran. Consider the Biblical insistence on capital punishment for gathering sticks on Sunday. As you note, in Christianity there have been swings back and forth between compassion and cruelty. Think of an Irish monk circa 600 AD, a Spanish inquisitor circa 1500 AD, and an American bishop circa 2011 AD. Perhaps the next generation of Muslims will be less violent than today's young extremists. In any case, we must embrace moderate Muslims and oppose the extremists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-47136449210723752592011-03-22T09:15:04.313+00:002011-03-22T09:15:04.313+00:00I'm wondering what else Christopher Caldwell h...I'm wondering what else Christopher Caldwell has to say, since what he says here seems to me pretty much common knowledge. Is he just restating some well-known points, or does he have more to add?<br /><br />One ground for questioning his stance is to contend that the "conservative" nationalism he seems to postulate was mixed up with fascist and Marxist elements. So was there ever a stable standpoint available to older generation Muslims (against which some of their children are rebelling)? <br /><br />Who spoke for this sensibly conservative generation? Nasser? Hardly. He favoured authoritarian socialism. King Farouk? No, he preferred the Nazis and fascists. Incidentally, Wikipedia claims that he ate 600 oysters a week.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16898681927233029900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-51128975449905672732011-03-21T03:36:20.304+00:002011-03-21T03:36:20.304+00:00Yes, Hortensio, and it doesn't bode well for t...Yes, Hortensio, and it doesn't bode well for the future. But - who knows? - perhaps the tide will turn again.Mark Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506844097173520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4964847228497363438.post-32270534126997544072011-03-20T11:10:02.401+00:002011-03-20T11:10:02.401+00:00That goes along with the (much-quoted) statistic t...That goes along with the (much-quoted) statistic that older Muslims in Europe are less likely to be Islamist than younger Muslims.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com